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Original Seed Bank / Sensi Connection

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TempleBall View Drop Down
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  Quote TempleBall Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Original Seed Bank / Sensi Connection
    Posted: 20 January 2006 at 04:39

Hello,

I have a questions concerning the original seed Bank and the selling of the company to become Sensi Seeds...

If I recall correctly...

neville sold the company to Alan in 1992...ish...?

I assume the sale included the original mothers or at least clones of the original strains ?

I have some questions about specific strains in the collection and the subsequent re-naming of strains etc. If I get an actual response I'd like to pose some questions to someone who would know or could find out some facts.

Please let me know if anyone can help.

Thanks

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  Quote TempleBall Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 January 2006 at 23:08

Ok to be more specific....

 

I recall a selection from neville's Seed bank catalog from 1987/88 offering 50 Afghani seeds from the "maple Leaf Wilson" collection. MLW was a genetics collector who brought some of the first indicas to the States (according to the description). They called him Maple Leaf due to the large fan leaves from his previously unseen indicas. (They were the size of Maple Leafs).

Question: How does this batch of unselected seeds from the MLW collection/original Seed Bank collection "relate" to the current Maple Leaf indica offering from Sensi seeds? The current description in your catalog suggests a "Maple aroma". The description in the Seed bank catalog suggests the breeder /collectors name played a role in the naming of the collection.
Is the current offering from Sensi, just a single Mom from this original collection that was worked with? Does the " Maple aroma" come from selective breeding of that trait ?

Is the Name, Aroma and original collection from MLW  just a coincidence?

Question 2:
The original Seed Bank catalogs listed a Haze X NL5 cross, Sensi offers a NL5 X Haze cross. Is the Sensi offering different? It seems like the Seed Bank used a Haze Mom & Sensi used a NL5 Mom...? Also, I noticed that your description is the exact same one used by Neville in his catalog, even the photo used for the strain is the same. Just curious about the story behind this.

Question 3:
Shiva Shanti 1, described as a three way hybrid, with Garlic bud in the mix. The original seed bank catalog sold their Garlic Bud with a similar description and the SAME photo used by both Neville & Sensi. Neville's garlic was a pure indica I beleive, not a three way hybrid containing garlic bud in the mix. Again since the image used in the catalogs is the same, I find this confusing.

Question 4:
Photos of strains in your catalog...As stated above many are the same images originally used by Neville almost 20 years ago. Surely the strains have changed a bit over time (see questions #1 & #2) and a more accurate/current photo could be used. Digital cameras abound and I'm curious about this practice.

Anyways, thanks in advance, I've always enjoyed your offerings but I've always had these questions in my mind. Any help is appreciated.

Gracias,

 

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  Quote TempleBall Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 January 2006 at 23:37

One more question:
I recall Neville selling a strain called "Tiger Indica" This was one of the first indoor strains I ever came across. a pure indica that was fast & heavy hitting. Yeild was average. He did not offer it again after that first catalog or two. Any info on this old strain? Origins etc would be appreciated.

Also,  a correction...I mis-spoke above and said the seed bank was sold to "Alan" when I meant to say "Sensi"

 

Cheers!

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  Quote enkigooroo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 January 2006 at 07:51

Hi TempleBall

It sure would be cool to see Sensi add more info on each strain. I for one would like to read about different phenotypes to be expected for each strain with photos and specs for each pheno. I'm sure the same questions get asked again and again, perhaps moderator reviewed links to strain details buried in the forum could be listed with each strain description. I don't know the answer, but I do feel there is a lack of info listed under the strain descriptions. Maybe a description format similar to what you would find in a plant / tree / mushroom book for describing a specie or strain / variation would look professional. I'm sure if someone with the time wanted to create this, and donate it to Sensi, it would be welcome??

Cheers

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  Quote Ganja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 February 2006 at 16:43

Hi TempleBall,

Sorry, I have studiously avoided this set of questions, as they are very difficult to answer for a number of reasons.

In the past, I've had several long discussions with growers that offer no great insights from either direction and (often) become increasingly terse. You can probably still find one of these threads elsewhere in 'Seeds, Genes and Strains', about the origin of G-13 Hash Plant.

In the instances where I have more (or more specific) information on breeding than what's available in the catalogue and other Sensi material, it's generally not information that I may freely distribute. There are legal (and even personal) reasons for this, but it's mostly a matter of trade secrets.

In many cases, my own questions about breeding histories are given ambiguous answers by those few people at Sensi who have specific knowledge, simply because it's closely guarded information.

Also, it's worth noting that when talking about breeding histories of strains, general answers are usually sufficient.

Since breeding is affected as much by the characteristics of the individual parent plants as by the gene-pools they come from,  specific answers about breeding would only really be useful/relevant to breeders who have the exactly the same individual plants to work with.

To answer what I can about the questions you've raised:

1) I was going to make the same point about 'Sensi', rather than Alan.

It's also an important point that while the name-change in 1990 (or possibly '91) did signal the end of Neville's association with the Seed Bank, it did not mark the beginning of Sensi's involvement.

Neville retired around 1990 or '91,  but the association between Sensi and the Seed Bank predates this by quite a few years.

Suffice to say that Sensi Seed Bank retained (and retains) all the gene stock of the Seed Bank, plus quite a lot more. Most, if not all stable hybrids from the Seed Bank catalogue are still featured in the Sensi catalogue.

Most still have their orginal names, as well as the same pictures and descriptions that have been use for 15-20 years.

Where names have changed - for instance the NL#5 x Skunk #1 f1 Hybrid from the 1987 catalogue is now better known as Shiva Skunk - it's mostly for aesthetic reasons. The strings of alpha-numerics that describe the parent generations of complex hybrids do not make very catchy titles.

There are a few experiments from the Seed Bank catalogues that were discontinued - such as other variations on Ruderalis crossings like Rud. Sativa, or the multiple versions of NL and HP - presumably because their results were not sufficiently stable, predictable or potent.

You'll notice from the text in the Seed Bank catalogues that untested and in-development seed strains were available for sale (Chi P  Variabilis!!). This is largely because the theory and practice of professional cannabis breeding was still in its (modern) infancy back in the 80s and was more experimental in the way it distributed and perfected seed lines. A lot of information was gained via feedback from growers who were willing to try new and possibly unfinished strains.

It's the same theory as 'beta testing' of software, where in-development programs and games are distributed to some members of the public - usually dedicated gamers or computer users - in order to get expert testing and feedback before the final release.

This doesn't happen any more due to the changes in the cannabis industry and the home-growing scene (many more amateurs, who need to start with stable, predictable strains rather than experiments), not to mention the declaration of the Drug War in the late 80s, which made any sort of casual association with cannabis into a life-threatening offence.

Actually, it seems that certain seed-sellers might still release undeveloped strains to the public for 'beta testing' but, if so, they don't mention this fact to their customers...

Most answers I could give to your other questions would be largely speculative, so I won't get into them right now.

I can't find any reference to "Maple Leaf Wilson" or Tiger Indica in the old catalogues I'm reading, and the question of Garlic Bud is one that has puzzled me at times over the years.

I did notice that the Haze hybrid in the 1987 catalogue is named as Haze x NL#1 f1 Hybrid, rather than the NL#5 x Haze that is sold by Sensi Seed Bank.

The Haze x NL#1 hybrid sounds more like Neville's Haze or, rather, the intermediate  generation that produced the Haze/NL hybrid used as a parent in the breeding of the final Neville's Haze (which is 25% NL).

NL#5 is a clone, not a seed, so it can only be the mother in a hybrid - indeed, NL#5 is the Indica mother of several of Sensi's top strains.

NL#1 is a true-breeding Afghani, so both males and females of this strain would be available for breeding.

You're right to observe that the 'x' in a hybrid's name, if used correctly, indicates that the parent plant to the left of the 'x' is the female.

However, in nearly every hybrid that involves Haze, Haze is listed as the father.

This could mean either that the Haze x NL#1 hybrid was a breeding experiment using a Haze female, or that the 'x' was not used with its strict meaning.

When hybrid name is given with a slash in place of the 'x' - ie NL#1/Haze - this is meant to indicate that the gender of the two named parents is unclear.



Edited by Ganja
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Grasso View Drop Down
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  Quote Grasso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 June 2006 at 21:46
Hello,

NL#5 is a clone, not a seed, so it can only be the mother [...].

When I read those words for the second time it stroke me: Do males have a different photo-period? Why can they not be kept alive forever? I am not going to get any sleep before I know why.

Uli
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  Quote Ganja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 June 2006 at 22:10
I think males can be kept alive indefinitely. The Haze father used to make NL#5xHaze is a very old and a very sought-after plant. And there are several other very important, very old males that are fundamental to certain breeds.

From what I can tell most true Haze crosses are made with Haze as the male (if the 'x' in their names is used with its real meaning, anyway). Some experts have pointed out that unless that male is a cutting of the original Haze, the resulting hybrid shouldn't really use 'Haze' in its name.

In many ways, individual  males  whose gene combinations are well-documented are more important to a good breeding program than females.

The qualities of females are easily observed in the flowering stage, (even if they prove less easy to isolate or stabilise in the offspring). The qualities of males can sometimes only be judged by observing their offspring.

From what I know, breeders keep their prized males alive for as long as physically possible.
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  Quote Grasso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 June 2006 at 22:36
Hello,

but males tend to wither and die after their pollen sacks have emptied, Ganja. I really need to grow more and talk less. See you later,

Uli
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  Quote Ganja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 June 2006 at 22:52
That happens at the end of the males' flowering period.
There should be no difference for males when it comes to maintaining 'father plants' in a vegetative cycle and flowering clones of them to produce pollen.

As far as I know, this is how certain 'heritage' strains are maintained.

Go well and grow well.
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  Quote Sticky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 June 2006 at 03:58
Great report guys, exellent reading

Ganja is it true neville was an aussie, and do you know if he is still alive ?

He is a legend around my parts, some talk of the castle he rented and filled with weed crossing for years

I dont want the brothers address but what can you tell us about the legend

Sticky
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  Quote greengold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 June 2006 at 08:35
Ganja - you say sensi still use the old famous haze male from neville?!?! My tought was that neville take it with him before leaving you guys,... My guess was that sensi now used the Original Haze (skunkman, tfd ect).... interesting,...can you confirm this info?
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  Quote Ganja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 June 2006 at 17:20
I don't think Neville took anything with him when he left. AFAIK (and I've never met the man), he retired from the business.

What Skunkman uses, I dunno. The word 'Original' used in a cannabis-title always makes me a little suspicious, but that's just me.  Do you know if orignal Haze is a single plant or is meant to be a seed-line?

As for what TDF uses, I may have a better idea of that sometime soon...
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  Quote greengold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 June 2006 at 04:43
Hie ganja!

what i've heard -

The haze brothers coined the word "Haze" from the hybrid genepool they made with the skunkman genetics (they were friends). It was fantastic plant because it was made with the very best pure sativa (thai, colombian gold, mexican gold, south indian kerala)crossed in a 4-way polyhybrid, so massive hybrid vigour was the result. The "haze" label begun to be used by other growers, so the hazebros changed to "The Original Haze". There is no known clone or seeds from this original 4-way F1. However, the skunkman inbred this hybrid to IBL form, loosing the hybrid vigour that was a key to the haze sucess, but making it a fantastic breeding sativa. The Flying Dutchman offer the skunkman genetics, as you may know.

Now, for Neville. This as been a much debated issue, and i dont have a clear cut answer...  Neville got the original haze from the skunkman in the mid 80's (so not totally inbred a this point... not the post f-10 we know now.) However, we cant be less sure if  it was the "haze" he was using in his breeding program. Neville confirmed that his haze male "came directly from 69", and shantibaba says its a "thai x colombian(almost pure colombian) that we call haze". Some suggested neville aquired this plant when he came in the US... So my guess is that Neville may  have got what people was calling "haze" but was not the TRUE original haze (the one from the haze bros/skunkman).

In short - The Neville haze male is either from a more unstable(but inbred) original haze from the skunkman, or a hybrid  he acquired in the US that was called "haze". So to say,  in both case, it can be just as good.

My guess was that Neville get the f**k out of sensi with a lot of the very special mother/father plant (including this haze male) and SSB now used "the original haze". It is just as good or better so i was not very interested in stirring sh*t about that, but since you say you may be still use this special neville male, i tought it was interesting to know if its was confirmed true.
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  Quote greengold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 June 2006 at 06:23
BTW, is it possible to you to ask around and confirm any of this? I dont think this can be classified as "trade secret" because we may obtain this info easily by neville/shanti.....the sensi's reputation can only be better if we know the truth IMO!
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  Quote Ganja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 June 2006 at 13:21

I'm never sure about which parts of the 'oral history' modern seed-breeding to believe, because quite a few of them are in conflict.
If you ask old-time breeders (and other people who were actually there in the mid 1980s) for their opinions on the parts of the oral history which have recently been written down as fact, all of them will take issue with one claim or another.

Bearing in mind that much of what I know is also from the ‘oral history’ with certain additional sources of reliable information (tight-lipped though they are), this story sounds close to what I've been told:

“…in the hands of the Haze brothers it was still a kind of varied genetic group with diverse phenotypes, not yet the stable and purebred strain known today as the "original haze" That special genetic selection was done by a Californian breeder cooperation called Sacred seeds.

They were the ones who, by continuous inbreeding and selecting, managed to preserve the essence of four Sativa landraces in one stabilized phenotype that they called the Original Haze: A plant with tall and lanky growth; loose, fluffy buds, a long flowering time of 12-16 weeks or more; and a late outdoor maturation (December to January).

But despite these unfavourable characteristics the Haze strain quickly became very popular in California, because it set a new bud-quality standard, featuring an awesome cerebral high with a psychedelic edge and unique smell and taste: very sweet and complex, with both a spicy and citrus like aroma. Many breeders, i.e. in Humboldt County, grew their own versions of Haze in the 70's often adding their own Sativa varieties.

Although their Haze was originally bred for personal use and never meant for any retail purposes, The Haze Brothers laid the foundation for a big commercial hit once they passed their genetics on to other growers, like Sam the Skunkman from Sacred Seeds.

It was Sam who brought the Original Haze to the Netherlands in 1984, along with many other classic US varieties such as Skunk #1, Early Girl, And California Orange.

Skunkman sold his seeds to a couple of resident breeders:
Neville Schoenmakers (owner of the Seed Bank)
Ben Dronkers (Sensi Seed Bank, which at the time was called Sensi Seed Club)
Eddie Reedeker (who later founded the seed company the Flying Dutchmen in 1998)
The breeder Scott Blakey, AKA Shantibaba, also got his hands on the original, creating marvellous haze hybrids with it at greenhouse seeds in the 90's.”

[Two of these names have been very closely associated for a long time. Now, it’s three out of the four. More info to follow. Heh heh]

“Reedeker and Sam worked closely together in those early days, sowing out the haze and other US seeds ten-thousand-fold in large greenhouses, creating new hybrids and producing seeds for the whole trade sector.

Marijuana Botany author Robert Connell Clarke states that the Flying Dutchmen has the purest Haze. In fact, they are one of the only seed banks to offer it in its pure, authentic form. Breeder Bjoerd from the Flying Dutchmen recommends his Original Haze. Predominantly for hybridization purposes, because "it brings out the best in them"

This way, the hybrid vigour effect-Which was lost with the pure Haze because it suffers from a certain inbreeding depression due to the fact that it has been maintained as a pure strain for decades now- is going to be restored. Most competitors have focused on creating and selling Haze hybrids because of the aforementioned unfavourable growing characteristics of the pure strain. Schoenmakers, for example, was very successful with Northern lights #5 x Haze, winning the Mostly Sativa Crown at the High Times Cannabis cup 1990 before he got arrested with visiting Australia (the DEA had him on their list because he sold a damn lot of seeds from Holland to America by mail) The Sensi Seed club bought Schoenmaker's seed collection and then merged with the Seed Bank to become the Sensi Seed Bank.”

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